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CAIRO, Feb. 14—Following are excerpts former an inter view v President Gamal Abdel Nasser the the united Arab Republic conducted in English Friday evening by James Reston, a vice presi dent the The new York Times, in the existence of Mohammed Hassanein Heykal, chef edi tor the Al Ahram, in ~ the Presi dent's residence here:
Q. Room there any type of modest measures that might be taken brief of a irreversible cease fire to rest the present diplomatic deadlock between you and Israel? because that example, you are on the verge the a spiritual holiday. Would it be feasible to do a start with a temporary cease‐fire during religious holidays one both sides?
A. This would certainly be two or 3 days? I'll tell you some thing: There to be no stop fire after the defense Coun cil resolution. There to be a cease‐fire from our side, but no cease‐fire indigenous the other side.
I have proof of ghat: the cities of Suez and Ismailia, us were not at that time in a instance to Answer, however every work there to be bombing and shooting. Countless civilians to be killed. What taken place yesterday in Cairo
Q. Might you define your strong objections to direct negotiations v Israel. The United claims doesn't recog nize China but negotiates through its civilization in Warsaw. What's the difference in her situation?
A. Really i think there is a big difference. Ns don't think you occupy a part of China, or China a component of the united States, yet Israel lived in 20 every cent of our territory, around 70 every cent that Jordani one territory, and about 10 per cent that Syrian territory. For this reason if we sit in ~ this table through Israel> not it will be table that of capitulation. This means we would certainly accept uncondi tional surrender.
On the other hand, there is nothing in the defense Council resolution
Views ~ above Rhodes Formula
Q: So i gather that the Rhodes formula for talks through the Israelis is no ac ceptable come you?
Answer: friend know, for 2 years Jarring
We declared all ours views around that, Jordan stated all she views around that, Israel refused. Lock said, We desire to sit with the Arabs and talk and we room not all set to to speak anything around our plans.
On the contrary, they stated in your statements from the prime Minister, the Deputy prime Minister, the Minister of Defense the they desire a greater, larger Israel. They de cided to join Jerusalem. Castle talked about joining various other parts native Syria native Jor dan, and also Egypt. So we look come the Israelis with skepticism and much more than that. We are sure they desire expansion.
You know, they space a coun shot without borders. They claimed that they have no bor ders and also we desire to negoti ate around our borders. What is the meaning of that? This means expansion. This method that they want to include territo ries that other nations to their land. Lock talk around the following generation do the real boundaries of Israel.
Q. Once you came to pow er you come as a young rev olutionary v plans come modernize your country and you hope to proceed that revolution. Is this battle an obstruction or is that a advantage to the revolution?
A. Really, it is no a bene fit. At the beginning, we con centrated every our sources on structure up ours country and also there were no plans around bringing much more arms to the army. I gained assurances from the American administer ment and also the British administrate ment the wei must have se curity and there would certainly be no aggression, through Israel versus us. I was able to convince the army around that. Batt sud denly in 1955, there were aggressions against Gaza. Countless of our soldiers to be killed. This to be the begin ning in between the Israelis and also after the revolution.
Of course, after the aggres sion come the require of having actually arms. You know the story. Brothers refused, America re fused and then we gained arms indigenous the Soviet Union.
Q. Where execute you think things went wrong? as soon as you began your revolution there was much sympathy for your objectives, in the joined States and also the rest of the West, and somehow this loitered down right into misunder standing and worse. What's her view about what was responsible because that that?
A. I am telling you part thing: The on purpose of the Israelis native the beginning was to produce misunderstand ing in between Egypt and the unified States. Girlfriend know, in the beginning of 1955 we were in a very great relation. Then came this inquiry of the attack by the Israelis and we asked about arms. We were promised eight from the United says Government, yet there were pressures versus the unified States and also we were unable to acquire arms one of two people from the joined King dom.
Then, of course, us were feeling that us were in a mess since the Israelis were solid and us were needing arms. Climate carne the people‐ in this nation to start fires in American prop erties, cinemas and also so on, until we arrested among them and also he confessed he came from Israel in order to cre ate misunderstanding in between the unified States and Egypt.
Then us were subjected to an ext aggression indigenous the Israelis and also the army was asking for arms, and I'll tell you the in a transformation by the army, the very first thing peo ple think of is arms. Us didn't get any kind of arms until 1955. Then we acquired in touch through the Soviet Union, and also you know the remainder of it. We acquired arms native the Soviet Union, so this to be the begin ning that the misunderstanding through the united States.
Q. In your check out was this misunderstanding purposeful top top the part of the unified States? after ~ all, you had actually long associations with Jeffer son Caffrey, Hank Byroade and also other American Ambas sadors, including Luke Battle.
Did you acquire the impression the the United claims really does have actually imperialist ambi tions to manage or overcome this component of the world‐through Israel?
A. You know, at the start ning lock tried to dominate this component of the world direct ly. Friend know, ns was inquiry by the United says Ambassa dor just not to try to to speak anything around the area yet mind our very own affairs. One can not isolate Egypt, i told him, indigenous what is going on about here, and of course, this to be the start of the Baghdad Pact. I stated we would certainly not agree around the Baghdad Pact.
So they tried to manage us in the unified States, in coop eration through Britain, and also they tried likewise to control the area.
This was clear in Mr. Eden's statement before Parli ament after the signature of the Baghdad Pact that we
Statement on Oil
Q. In the communiqué you issued the other day ~ the Arab summit meeting here, there was an indication at the end that continued pres ence the the American oil companies was an indirect means by which the United claims could continue financ ing this war with Israel versus you. What to be the definition of that?
A. Well, really, one would need to ask self the ques tion: Israel had the ability to win the war of '67. Israel to be able to destroy all the Arab air forces, one of two people the Syrian, the Jordanian or the Egyp tian. And also Israel claimed that they shed only a couple of planes. For this reason they were with air su premacy end the whole area, and also it was claimed after the war that Israel had two or 3 pilots for each airplane.
Then we tried come rebuild our equipped forces by getting the same varieties of airplanes us were utilizing before, one of two people MIG‐17's or 21's. It's famous that the MIG‐21 has a an extremely short range and also the MIG‐17. So these MTG's are famed as protective weapons, no offensive.
Well, what taken place after that was the approval the the joined States federal government to offer Israel 50 Phantom, air planes and around 100 sky hawks. The Phantom plane can carry around seven tons of bombs and also it is it long variety plane which have the right to reach any part of our country. One has to ask himself a question: Why walk the United says agree to provide such tools to Israel, when the Israelis to be in a position of waiting su periority?
U. S. Motives Questioned
The answer is the these tools were offered to it is in used versus us in attack action, versus our military formations and against our commercial buildings, and against our civil population. What happened in the Israeli raid exterior Cairo yesterday is just one of these examples. This weapons room not to defend Israel versus aggres sion, but to provide Israel the strength to pressure us to expropriate what the United says wants. What go the United says want?
Q. Ns think the United states wants tranquility in the area—I honestly do. I agree over there is a difference to be made be tween the Phantoms and also Sky hawks, with their greater speed and variety and transporting power, and also the MIG‐17's and 21's, however after all, you have actually been trying to get MIG‐23's native the Russians, and also you have actually not been able to obtain them, have you?
A. I did not try to gain the MIG‐2's until two months ago. And the 23's aret not favor the Phantoms since the Phantom is a fighter‐bomber and also the MIG‐23 is one inter ceptor, not a fighter‐bomber.
Q. What alters would you mean iii the American aide mémoire on Egypt in bespeak to make it an ext negoti able—the one that proposes the withdrawal of Israeli pressures from all populated terri tory except for particular ne gotiated security arrange ments?
A. Well, girlfriend know, you said that the United states wants only peace. I want to talk about that. The United claims does whe the Israelis say. The Israelis to speak they want straight negotiations with the Arab states. That's what the joined States has actually said.
The joined States has said it desires to negotiate secure and recognized boundaries. That's what the Israelis stated too. The United says wants to view negotiated agreements around the Gulf of Aqaba.
That's what the Israelis have actually said. Therefore answering her ques tion, ns don't think that the united States document was the same with the defense Council resolution. Us agreed come the protection Council reso lution. We assumed it to be a balanced resolution.
In the protection Council resolution something was said around withdrawal. Then an various other phrase around peace: Each country has the ideal to live, and also so on, every what is well known: The recognition of every the countries in the area. Then there was one more thing about navigation, cost-free dom the navigation, and some thing about the refugees. So the is balanced. But the Ameri have the right to proposal is not well balanced like that. Us don't think this a good resolution, yet that is what the Israelis want.
Q. If the is true, why perform you think the Jewish organi zations in the United states were for this reason upset around the American proposals and also the Rogers speech? Why would certainly they have done the if the State room was offering Israel every little thing it wanted?
A. Well, you know, be tween the Israelis there room some differences. Several of them desire a certain piece that land, others want a bigger piece of land, some civilization want to add all the inhabited territories to Israel. And I think countless of the Israelis and also many the the Jews desire to add all the lived in terri tories, that is to say, to have all of old Palestine, part of Egypt, part of Syria.
That's yes, really why there were such differences. And don't think that would certainly be the finish if castle joined every these parts. In ~ the following 10 years they will certainly have much more parts because their plans room well known.
Q. Is the military escala tion, particularly these waiting strikes, producing emotions in Egypt which provides it more complicated for you to make tranquility or simpler for you come make: peace?
Always Favored Peace
A. Well, yes, really the ques tion is no that. Indigenous the start I was constantly for peace, however what is peace? This is something around which everybody has actually his own opinion and also interpretation. As soon as I was analysis your interview with Mrs. Meir, she to be speaking many times around peace. She said you that we assaulted Israel 3 times. Well, really, what is peace?
I desire not to answer this question. I want to speak something. Why walk this problem go on for 20 years? Nobody inquiry this question. ~ the 1949 agreement, what happened? Mrs. Meir said that lock were assaulted by the Arabs in 1948. She said you that there was a Jewish state and another Arab state and also the Israelis to be attacked, and this is no true. Well, you have the right to have the records. Prior to the com plete evacuation of the Brit ish troops from, Palestine, the Jews assaulted the Arab state—which was referred to as the Arab state follow to the partition setup — occupied numerous cities, populated Jaffa. Then as soon as Mrs. Meir states that the Arabs attacked, I'm i m really sorry to say that this is no true.
She called you the Israel was struck in '56. There to be no comment native you, think it is clean to everybody that the aggression that '56 was no from our side. There was a plot in between Britain, France, and also Israel. Therefore in '56 Israel was not affiliated at every in the Suez Canal affair, yet she i agree to be a cat's paw because that Britain and also France.
Well, in '67, the totality question is nearer. Why go this problem proceed for 20 years? after the Rhodes agreement, there to be a resolution from the Secu rity Council about the refu gees, to go back to their house land, and also to have actually compensa tion. And then there was commitment to have a concili ation committee, i m sorry was formed from the united State, France, and also Turkey, to carry the Arabs and also the Is raelis together to agree about the borders. There to be a meeting at Lausanne however then the Israelis left Lausanne and this to be the very first and the last conference of this committee.
No solution on Refugees
Then what come after the was that more than one mil lion Arabs were moved out of their homeland, deprived of their property, deprived of everything. Israel refuse to carry out the resolution of the unified Nations about the refugees. Therefore the Arabs claimed that in order to have any kind of agreement there must be a simply solution about the ref ugees, however there to be no for this reason lution.
Now I'll tell friend something: castle speak around peace however neglect fully the Pales tinians. If the problem of the Palestinians, of the refugees, is no solved, there will certainly be no peace. This is the key question or peace. Ns realize that as soon as Mrs. Meir was talking v you, she neg lected completely the Pales tinians. Whereby were the Pal estinians native '48 till '67? fine the Palestipians were there.
If we desire peace, well, there will be a clear and just basis for peace, and also this is the resolution of the security Council, complete withdrawal indigenous the inhabited territories, consisting of Jerusalem, then, a simply solution because that the refu gees, and also after that, there will be no problem.
Q. Let me go back to the war situation. How much suf fering and destruction do you think the world will forgive in this country for the services of this formula?
A. Really, that is not for the services of the formula. The is because that the sake of justice, because that the benefits of your rights, the is for the sake of not being humili ated. You know, over there were countless ways the humiliation in her interview through Mrs. Meir. You know what she the fered Egypt defeat, Nasser is weak, why need to we heed him, and also many words choose that.
Our human being here, really have actually their experiences: We have lived here for much more than 7,000 years: civilization‐old Egyptian civilization. It has withstood many invaders. Now we space invading the brand-new invaders, the Israelis. So the is our independence, and also it is likewise our dignity.
I will tell you something. The endurance that this coun try, this world is an extremely great, and whatever obstacles they face, they firmly insist on. The is no a inquiry of formulas.
Q. Several of my colleagues were commenting critical night about how calmly the Egyp tian world accepted the bombers ~ above the edge of the city and were speculating around whether this come from the personality of the people, from fatalism, reli gion, or what?
A. It is your history. When I speak that history, ns don't speak about history books. In every man there is some thing from his father, grand father. This is yes, really the characteristics of any kind of country. That is a mix of plenty of things.
I think, first of all, they have confidence in lock selves. You recognize I checked out prayers this particular day with chairman Numeiry
Also, over there is a question of nationalism. You know, nationalism to united state is basic.
Q. Is there a climb in Egyptian nationalism? Mr. Heykal was arguing the various other night that there was a climb in Egyptian together dis tinguished indigenous Arab na tionalism after her own nation came under attack.
A. Prior to '67 it was Arab nationalism. After '67 it was Egyptian and Arab nationwide ism. You know we to be dis cussing the concern of Is raeli evacuation of Sinai, without fixing the trouble of Jerusalem and also the western bank, no one agreed about that. This remained in the main Committee. The
Q. Supposing then that this air battle spreads, and goes to industries and so on. Space you prepared at the time come accept direct air sup port from the Soviet Union or flyers from various other coun tries?
A. Well, this is a vulnerable question. I have to think around that, but additionally I have to say something: If this air raids reach the commercial centers, this will certainly not only be the industrial centers the Egypt; the will also be the in dustrial centers that Israel. We space studying what hap pened yesterday and we have actually to involved a decision.
Q. Do you accept the Is raeli official explanation that they do a technological error, do you think they wereaiming in ~ some other place and also got communities con fused?
Israeli Explanation Questioned
A. Girlfriend know, I sent out my armed forces secretary to the fac tory that was hit and also I have a report indigenous him. There to be no armed forces quarters close to this factory, however the timing of the raid was chosen simply at the an altering of the work-related shifts. The waiting raid took place 5 minutes before the come of the train that was bringing the new shift. Around 2,000 workers were top top their way to change the old shift. So i think the thing of the Is raelis was to offer us a les son, come teach us, as it was stated to friend by Mrs. Meir.
Q. Have actually the revolutionary of your economy and society come close to fulfilling your expectations?
A. You understand we have actually a huge problem: The rise of one million people every year. Yet we have done a lot throughout the last 17 years. Yet after what taken place in 1967, we are really concen trating all our initiatives on defense.
Q. What room you doing around the birth‐control prob lem?
A. We have actually a birth‐control committee and also we shot by giving, not by lectures. We have actually facilities, however to me, education and learning is the main thing. Friend know, because who really conducts family setup ning: from what i see, that is the educated people. Castle really have family‐planning. Those who have high income, have actually family‐planning. Those who have low earnings don't have family‐planning. Therefore what is the difference be tween both the them? The distinction is education.
Q. Together you know, us now have actually a trouble in the United says with dope, particu larly amongst the young. You have actually a long experience with drug addiction in this part of the world. Execute you have actually anything you desire to to speak on this subject?
A. You know, the prob lem right here was not through the youth. But we made a legislation after the revolution to give life imprisonment because that those who trade in hashish. As a result of that, ns cannot say the there was no hashish, yet the price of hashish was very high and it was no pos sible for anyone to get hashish. I think now the every centage of individuals is decreas ing come a great extent. We room fighting the smugglers by having patrols anywhere the borders, in the aerodromes, and the ports.
Q. You have been in power much longer than any type of other head of government in a promi nent country except four: Mao Tse‐tung, Haile Selassie, Gen eralissimo Franco, and Chi ang Kai‐shek. All of them, in one method or another, have had actually to limit their use of power and their missions in stimulate to preserve or restore peace and also survive. However in the Mid dle East, everything seems polarized, and also nobody appears to be limiting his objectives.
A. I'll tell friend something. To part extent, I'm now dif ferent from prior to the war of 1967. I need to be different. You know, native the very first be ginning, we were to plan everything about defense. You were below last ~ above the fourth day that June. Girlfriend left on Sunday
No arrangement for Attack
But there to be no plan for attack versus Israel then. I want to tell you something: we were not qualified of at tacking Israel by the time due to the fact that a big part the our army was in Yemen—about three divisions. Us thought always that the Israeli prob lem was really two problems.
The an initial one was the Pales tinian refugees and also their right in the homeland. And this problem needs a solu tion. Over there was another prob lem before us come which we were not giving great care. This was the problem of
I'll tell friend something more. I can not expropriate giv ing Israel one customs of Arab territory. I look at the ques tion as a very an easy prob lem. If yes, really everyone wants peace, we desire peace. Yet what is tranquility to us? Peace way the complete evacua tion of the occupied territory, consisting of Jerusalem, and also after that the recognition of Israel, the right of Israel come exist, the flexibility of navi gation in the Suez Canal.
Then there will be peace. There will be no need of police forces, no require of demili tarized zones, because if we fix the refugees problem, and also Israel agrees to borders without expansion, there will certainly be a solution, this difficulty went on two decades because there was no systems of the refugee problem, and also if there will certainly be no solution, the will continue for an additional 20 years. Ns hope you know me.
Would recognize Israel
I check out all what was claimed by Mrs. Meir
She wants me to sit in a chair, it is in polite and so on, but what is peace? If castle evacu ate the populated territories and also solve the refugee prob lem, ns will acknowledge Israel. There will be no problem. Why to be there no recogni tion? because there was the trouble of the refugees. If the trouble of the refugees continues, nobody will certainly recog nize Israel.
Q. This is interesting be reason one of your colleagues claimed the trouble for Egypt is the Israeli state, we don't psychic a Jewish homeland, however a Jewish state is intolerable.
A. Girlfriend know, that is right to some extent. What i say, really, is that there will certainly be a state which has Jews, Mos lems, Christians, because who were expelled the end of Israel? The Christians and the Mos lems. As soon as the refugees re turn, it will certainly be, really, no a fanatic state together it is now— because they are speaking around Judaism and also the state the Judaism. We don't speak the state that Islam.
O. Has there been any type of con tact between you and Presi dent Nixon during this 30‐day duration before his decision on the planes?
A—You know, we have no concepts of acquiring in contact. We had confidence in the new regime and we were told they would be really even‐handed, however what taken place was that they were repeating the native of Abba Eban. The American aide mémoire— watch it and also see what Abba Eban said—the aide mémoire having actually phrases, finish phrases, indigenous Eban. Friend know, the Rusk eight clues of 1968 top top the Middle east were actually far better than the Rogers 10 points.
Q.—Would you go over two points, one the control by Israel that the whole tech nology the the. Pentagon? to be you implying in any way that this had been derived by improper method or that the U. S. Governmen thad offered them this technology?
Israel's devices Discussed
A.—The United states Gov ernment has provided them this technology. You understand that just two countries have this technology, the united States and also the Soviet Union, and to some extent France. When they assault us, because that instance, castle have electronic jamming versus our radar. Then our radar
Q.—You space telling me miscellaneous that i didn't know. I didn't understand that they had actually all that.
A.—Yes, they have all that. They have actually long‐range wait planes. All their airplanes are long‐range. We have actually a couple of airplanes, bombers, that space long‐range.
Q. Why execute you expect that Johnson gave the Israelis planes in ~ the finish of his ad ministration?”
A. It puzzled me really. Well, “I will tell you frankly. Indigenous the beginning, prior to the war, Johnson tried come con trol us He offered us‐ultima tums and also he sent, i think, the Under Secretary the State and also he said that castle must can see the in dustry, to see reactors and also so forth.
And when we refuse he said they would offer Israel arms and also so on and that if we attacked them about that v propaganda, then they would give them more. “Sud denly we attacked him and then they quit their aid. Weùsed to have aid in wheat, about $60‐million. And we were at the time without any wheat reserves, just 10 work or so. So we turned come the Soviet Union and we said them that if castle don't send united state wheat in 10 days us would confront a very huge prob 1em;without bread. And they sent out us their ships that were on their way from Canada and also Australia. That method we were able to resolve this prob lem. We challenged a an extremely com plicated situation.
Then we acquired a tape document ing ~ above the head the the C.I.A. Here, speaking, about inten tions the the joined States versus the regime, us ar rested him due to the fact that he to be dealing” v an Egyptian, a newspaperman. The United says was trying by all way to remove us. That is why it sustained Israel.
Coming ago to the ques tion of cease‐fire, Abba Eban said that as soon as he checked out the United says they told him the if Israel were effective
But we could not expropriate a cease‐fire alone because this is the objective of the Is raelis. They want to readjust all these inhabited territo ries. Lock are structure settle ments in Sharm El Sheik and in the Sinai. That is what lock want. A cease fire to develop settlements for expansion.
Q. Her proposition, then, is accept of the protection Council resolution, both political parties of it? Second, tap the money from all territory?
A. There have the right to be some rec tifications. But when ns say rectifications, I typical rectifi cations. What is the meaning of rectification? together I under was standing it, there is a village, part of it in Jordan and part of that in Israel, they deserve to agree, this part will walk to Israel. In an additional village, a component will go to Jordan.
So the Jordanians give some land and also get part land. As soon as there is a village in one place and also the floor they usage is one more place, they deserve to agree around it. That's what I know by recti fication. The Israelis, once they speak around rectifica tion, they typical that they have to occupy huge amounts of territory.
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Q.: No, they room talking about something quite dif ferent. There is no doubt about that.